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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  August 12, 2010 1:00am-2:00am EDT

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>> larry: it is a pleasure knowing you. >> back to you, larry. >> larry: hang around. the burdens and gifts of facing life's adversity. the book is resilience. it will not disappoint you. time for "ac 360" and anderson cooper. >> texas politicians claiming terror babies so they can return and attack us. two say it's happening and they heard it from ex-fbi agents. we are asking for evidence and talking to the fbi. also the ground zero mosque battle and beyond. they said don't build it near hallowed ground. the pressure is on not to build mosques anywhere. we will talk to a minster who leads protests. crime and punishment, the search for a cereal killer who police say is targeting victims by skin color and luring thome doom by
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pretending he needs help. new details and we will take you up close to see how kids see race. it's an eye opening and heart breaking follow-up to the pilot study. a little girl said her own skin color is nasty and see how her parents are dealing with that. keeping them honest. one of the most stunning claims over legal immigration. the claim made by texas lawmakers that illegal immigrants are having babies here and raising them overseas as terrorists so they can then return here 20 years from now and attack us. call it the terror baby experience. you will hear from a high ranking official about this, but let's show you where we think this thing started. this is congressman gomer and what he said on the floor of the united states congress. >> i talked to a retired fbi agent and said one of the things they were looking at are terror cells overseas who figured out
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how to game our system and it appeared they would have young women who became pregnant would get them into the united states to have a baby. they wouldn't even have to pay anything for the baby. they would return back where they could be raised and caudled as futer terrorists and day sent in to destroy our way of life because they figured out how stupid we are being in this country. >> he said that on the floor of the house. congressman gomer said the source was a former fbi agent. he offered no proof and no evidence and changed the details and said he first learned about this from a hamas-loving grandmother. we called the office asking for information to back up the claim that the name of the former agent or any evidence whatsoever that this actually is happening or something the fbi is looking
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into as he claimed the former agent said. we invited him on the program. the secretary said he was unavailable and the invitation spans. he is not the only texas lawmaker making this argument. a republican state representative came on the program to debate the topic of immigration in general and talked about the exact same thing. she was joined by a colleague on the democratic side, but take a look at what she said about the terror baby idea. the representative said pregnant women are coming as tourists and having babies and going back home with a nepharious purpose of turning them into terrorists and will come back and do us harm as part of a terrorist element that could cost us lives. where do you hear that? >> that is information that is coming to my office from former fbi officials. >> what former fbi officials?
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what evidence is there of a long-term plot to have american babies born here and raised as terrorists over seas and come back here? >> well, at this point i don't have the hard evidence right here in front of me, however this is something that is being talked about by various members of congress. this is being looked into. this is an issue with not only folks coming across our southern border with what is called anchor babies and coming over for the entitlement programs and for that sort of thing, but i think this is a lot more sinister issues. all of these issues, we need to look at because this is a critical, critical issue for all of the american public. >> you have no actual evidence? >> other than that coming from former fbi folks. >> can you tell us who the former fbi folks are and what evidence they have or have shown
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you? >> at this point i'm not going to reveal that. >> if this is a real threat to the security of the united states, why wouldn't current fbi people be horried about it as well. why wouldn't this -- >> that is a really good question because right now we have serious current threat that the government seems to be ignoring. ignoring on our southern border. >> but they haven't told you any actual evidence? you say former fbi agents have talked to your office. have they given your office actual facts or proof? >> that information we are still gathering. >> you made statements about these terror babies being raised to be brought back here. i'm asking for proof. you are saying you are still gathering it from unnamed former fbi people. >> actually when your folks
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called me in the preliminary, that was part of the conversation. they did not tell me you were going to grill me for the specific information that i was not ready to give to you tonight. they did not me that, sir. >> if you have follow-up information, we would love to get it. >> i don't consider that grilling. i thought it was more of a conversation. when someone gets grilled, they tend to know it. we called representative riddle's office for any sclefd evidence at all. we were told someone would cull us back and they have not. we welcome the call any time in the future. you may think that politicians who are concerned about this over national security as i'm sure they are say they are being tipped off by agents, you would think they would contact the fbi to check on this and they have not. we did check with the fbi and they knocked the claim down and the agency does not have
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credible evidence that this is happening. we thought maybe they just don't want to tell us because there currently officials that this is coming from former fbi agents and we should be checking with them. that we are happy to say worked out well because tom fuentes is the former assistant of international operations from 2004 to 2008 and joins me now. you oversaw offices in the biggest hot spots. have you come across evidence of these terror babies or anything like this? >> no, anderson, never. that includes the fbi has 75 offices overseas including offices in jordan, turkey, israel, saudi arabia, yemen, pakistan. there was never a credible report or any report fo matter coming across through all the various mechanisms of communication to indicate there was such a plan for the terror babies to be born. i would like to add, there seems
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to be a lot of fbi agents lurking in the halls of congress and legislature in the state of texas. i'm curious about that issue as well. >> is there any likelihood that this could have actually happened? does it make any sense whatsoever, the idea that 20 years from now they have a sort of plan to get kids in? it's not that hard to get u.s. citizens to attack the united states it appears. >> that's right. it's not hard to get u.s. citizens and not only that, they have spoken out many times publicly against the visa waiver program which means that anyone holding a european passport can come to the united states and they are six hours away by air from new york or washington and do not require a u.s. visa. they not only can recruit u.s. citizens as we have seen in plot after plot or people that are already in the united states
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like the time square bomber and those who came here from nigeria, but any of the european radicalized terrorists. the idea that they would grow terrorist babies from the ground up is ludicrous. i think you would have the fbi pushing to create a type of a no preschool list or something to address the babies. >> no preschool. do you think if a member of congress is really believing this, you would assume they would call the fbi. if a member called the fbi with this theory saying they heard this from a former agent, would the fbi inform that person they knew nothing about? >> i think so. in this case i think the fbi has knocked the story down completely, officially, unofficially. at first they didn't want to
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comment because they didn't want to lend credence, but realized there has to be some comment or no comment might mean there is classified information out there. there is no credible information about this particular aspect and something else i caught in your interview of debbie riddle where a former fbi agent informed her office, what does that mean? they talked to a receptionist or janitor? if an fbi agent was going to brief a public official about a sensitive matter of potential terrorism, they are not going to talk to anybody but the elected official himself or herself. it's that statement that somehow this was reported to the office is suspicious to me. >> the other thing she said is she is still gathering information on the facts behind it. you would think the first place they would gather information is at the actual fbi and if they
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took all the fbi, they would be told this is not true. >> last i checked the fbi is in the phone book. i think she could get ahold of them. >> hopefully they will call the fbi. appreciate your expertise. let us know about this idea. join the live chat. up next, the kind of tourism we know is happening because we met one of the families involved. who really is coming into this country to have kids and why? the proposed mosque near ground 0 and many mosques across the country.
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the fifth amendment grants automatic citizenship to anyone born in the united states. an estimated 340,000 of the more than four million babies born in the united states in 2008 were the offspring of inauthorized immigrants. there no accurate figures on how many immigrants come here pregnant with the sbenz of giving birth. it's probably a small percentage, but women who come here legally for the express purpose of giving birth. the family you are about to meet admits that is what they did and said they would do it again. by the looks of them, you never know this mother and son are at the heart of debateful they lived in mexico their whole lives. while the parents are mexican
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citizens, hector is a u.s. citizen. >> translator: i made a decision to have my child born in the united states. i wanted him to have dual citizenship so day if he moved to the united states he will not have any problems. >> lupita is well aware of the constitution's 14th amendment that declares all persons born in the u.s. are citizens. she admits she came to texas on a tourist visa while pregnant to give birth to a u.s. citizen. >> translator: day we might have to imgreat to the united states and i would like my child to be able to take full advantage of his rights and be able to stay in the united states. >> hector was born at this hospital in ft. worth where an average of 70% are to undocumented mothers. 70%. immigration attorneys say the
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14th amendment is very well-known to legal and illegal visitors alike. >> a lot of people say at least my child if they are born in the united states is almost guaranteed a better life than mine. >> lupit a's son may never live in the united states, but he is as american as any american citizen. notably immigration officials are permitted to stop pregnant women if they feel they are coming here just to have a baby. >> did you tell the border people you are here to have a baby or would you have told them that? >> translator: i only told my family. i did not tell the immigration officer. i hid to get my entry permit into the united states. >> they are in ft. worth to visit extended family and she is using the same tourist visa in effect when she gave birth. the 14th amendment guarantees all children are equal.
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>> would you like your son to help you become a citizen? he will be allowed to when he's an adult. >> translator: well, yes. i don't know what's going to happen in the future, but if we are doing badly in mexico and have to emigrate, why not? >> she hopes to have another child and said she will likely do it the same way as long as she has the 14th amendment to rely on. gary tuckman, cnn, ft. worth, texas. >> from what is an american to freedom of speech, the first amendment. the outcry against a mosque and a lot of other mosques hundreds or thousands of miles away. a best selling scholar of religion. later, new developments in the search for a serial killer with victims in at least three states. what to look for. a police sketch and details that may help. we'll be right back.
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the battle over it is islamic center mosque in new york picked up pace today. come to the wall and want to show you a billboard that will be appearing on buses in new york. a conservative blogger came up with the idea. on the left, a picture of one of the twin towers with a plane about to hit it. on the right is an image of the proposed islamic center with the symbol and they are asking why have a mosque so close to ground zero? the bus service refused to put the signs up and announced they were appearing on buses soon. to give you a sense of where it is, it's about two blocks away from ground zero.
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park 51 is what they are calling the site. not far away from another mosque in the neighborhood since 1970. the planner turned down an offer of state property to build an islamic center. the mom who will be head of the center is being sent by the state department to talk to muslims about here in america. the u.s. government may not have doubts about this mom, but a lot of other people do. american people not so sure. new polling, 68% oppose putting this t near ground zero. we will talk with them about the controversy. opposition not to this mosque, but any mosque anywhere in america. take a look at the images we have been seeing over the last couple of weeks. this is in staten island and new york, they rejected plans to sell a vacant convent about demonstrations there. here in california, members of a
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tea party group seeinging to build a new worship center in a nearby vacant lot. this is in tennessee accused of secretly doing a radical religion. here, protest in gainesville, florida, picketing a local mosque. this is the same group. a public koran burning on september 11. also in bridge port, connecticut there was a demonstration of a local mosque that is asking for protection this ramadan after a group called operation save america saying islam is say lie. we will talk to the leader of the protest about why he was protesting at this mosque. all of these groups write to protest and are protected in the u.s. constitution, the bill of rights and freedom of speech. so was the right to pray and express faith. freedom of religion.
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here it is in case we need to be reminded. congress should make no law prohibiting the free exercise there of and bridging the freedom of speech. not this religion or that religion or christian or popular faiths, but religion, president. it continues bridging the freedom of speech, period. not just the speech that's popular. if the first amendment only protected the popular and uncontroversial, we wouldn't need a first amendment in the first place. let's find out what's behind t protests. from operation save america last week in connecticut and best selling author bruce feiler who was on the best selling list for a year and a half. i understand you don't like islam and their beliefs are against your beliefs, but doesn't everyone have a right to hold religious beliefs that they want. >> there is no question about
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that, but we have a battle over truth. islam says that jesus didn't die on a cross. islam said jesus was not raised from the dead and says jesus is not god. we have a dimet cal problem. islam is a lie from the pit of hell and we need to speak that truth from the corners of the streets. >> i know it's contesting your right to what you believe is the truth, but why protest a mosque in connecticut that hasn't done anything wrong. they are not a terror plot that you uncovered. >> i understand what you are talking about and what's the problem with us? we are not protesting anything. we are proclaiming the truth. jesus christ is the way to truth and the and no one comes to the father but by him. >> would it be all right if muslims came to your house of worship and yelled at you and said you were promoting a lie? >> they came to my country and
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smashed into the trade towers and killed almost 3,000 people. >> you see no different between extremist terrorists and those who are citizens of the united states? just asking. do you see a difference? do you see a difference? >> islam is not a religion. >> you won't say if you see a difference. >> yes, i will, if you let me. the problem is that islam is not just a religion, but a political ideology that demands and forces dogma down our throat. >> let me point out, not for all muslims. extremists believe that -- the american citizens who are living here are not saying that america should become under their law. >> anderson, i understand what you are saying. you need to ask yourself the question, why are all terrorists muslim? not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim. >> that's not completely true.
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in fact the guy who blew up the oklahoma city -- >> you will use that one man, but that's not his mo. it's the mo of islam from 622 to this day. >> what are do you make of this? there increasing numbers of protests and not even the ground zero thing. that's near ground zero a few blocks away. these are protests against mosques trying to expand or in tennessee. >> i don't think he is qualified or speak for god, but i feel qualified to talk about the history of religion. what we have seen there is a correlation between violence and religion. if you took a room and all the religions in the world is that have no violence in their past go to one side of the room and 1 w no violence go to the other side of the room, one side would
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be empty. we had christians fighting among christians. we have a simple choice. you can have open warfare among the religions or coexistence. that depends on dialogue. what we are hearing from the reverend and people protesting the mosques and he has been open about it is a war against islam. the ground zero thing is a small thing, but this is a larger war against islam. the moment that we are in is that anybody at any religious tradition that has been discriminated against and guess what, that includes jews who were sold they couldn't go to synagogues or catholics who were told in this very spot who were told they couldn't build churches and anybody who has been vulnerable at a time for their belief system is at risk. >> the logical conclusion of your thoughts and i respect you for coming on and talking about your thoughts and that's what we try to do is have an open dialogue with people of different points of view, the
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conclusion seems to be, do you believe islam should be outlawed in the united states. do you believe a muslim can be a good citizen? >> it will be impossible for a muslim to be a good citizen because he must swear his allegiance to allah. >> they are not good citizens? >> they can't be if they swear allegiance and you believe it's all right to beat your wife and have four wives, that's fine. >> you are making gross generalizations about people's religious beliefs that are not true. >> that's what it said in the koran. you me what that means. >> on the opening night of ramadan and going on cnn and disparaging a billion people in the planet. that's fine. i have been to iraq and worked with the americans. >> not the people -- >> you just said they can't be good citizens. >> the bondaage of islam and it's a lie from the pit of hell
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that brings destruction and hell. >> you have thrown your weapons out there on the first night of ramadan. >> the weapons are the word of god. >> i think there two issues. one is looking backwards. in 3,000 years of western religion, there has been a contribution from the united states. that is that the government doesn't tell you when to pray, where to pray or even whether to pray. that is at stake here. looking back is the idea that the government cannot go into your mosque and tell you where you can put it or where you can't. 4 in 10 americans are in interfaith marriages s. he talking about sitting down with people at the dinner table and i believe with your faith or not and slitting your throat if he doesn't believe it? we live in a world where there two billion christians, a billion muslims and three billion people of other faiths. the internet and trade and
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america's place in the world is dependent upon the idea that we can exist and work and trade and do business and live alongside other people and that is what's at stake here. there is not a lot of people who are going to march in the war. a lot of people have doubts. my kids walk past a mosque to go to ballet practice. what they have to understand is it is a core american value and it will be a core to america's leadership in the world and our ability to exist with people whom we may disagree with. >> appreciate your time. appreciate you being honest as well. >> we talk about a decision to return in a war given to him by the defamation league because of the mosque near ground zero and he decided to return. also tonight, meet a 5-year-old african-american girl who said her dark skin was nasty. how they have changed and they were part of our pilot study and how kids see race.
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if your kids don't see race, it's shocking how much kids at that age and how thoughts are made up about it. we'll be right back.
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talking about the outcry over the islamic center and mosque at ground, but the anti-growing bigotry across the country. earlier you heard a experience theory with terrorist babies. you saw pictures of protesters outside mosques and one of the groups to burn korans on 9/11 and you heard a christian minster say islam is alive. that's his words. you have seen the league whose mission statements claims opposition of tolerance come out against the downtown mosque. the internationals with the first amendment of freedom surprise. he said he is returning. we spoke earlier tonight. >> the u.s. government is sending this along who is behind the ground zero mosque over seas
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to represent the united states and muslims in the united states and tell people what it's like being a muslim and representatives and republicans are saying they shouldn't be sending this guy. >> of course they shouldn't. it points out the central error and flaw in the way people are looking at this. the united states has been searching for moderate muslims, particularly moderate clergy men to spread of idea of moderate islam and they found this years before. >> they have been sending since 2007. >> right. he does fbi sensitivity training to teach the fbi how to detect extremists and moderates. this is proof positive, if you will, that the guy is actually a moderate and the u.s. government found him to be moderate. >> some republicans i talked to say he said on 60 minutes that he seems to be blaming the
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united states in part for 9/11 or refuses to renounce hamas. >> look, i don't want to defend his political views. they are not my political views. the stuff i have seen is generic. the core issue about this guy is what does he think about islam? what are his views on terrorisms and women's rights and what are his views on whether the koran should be interpreted liberally or be tolerant of other religions and all those issues, he has time and time again come out squarely in the moderate or liberal camp. >> you have returned to the anti-defamation league in a war they gave you. why did you return it? >> i will tell you what happened. i was going to write a column on this issue. i was going to write a column arguing that it was wrong for the united states in the united states for us to be
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discriminated against particular religions treating these people as second class citizens and it was a violation of principals and i was looking across my office with this award that the adl had given me and it's called the first amendment freedoms award. i thought it was something so hypocritical about the organization giving them a award for the amendment that said they should not favor any religion to have taken the stand it did. they came out and basically put the wait on the side of those opposed to the mosque. >> they're claim they support the right to have an islamic center because of the sensitivity of the issue and the area that basically they are saying you should pay attention to the sensitivities of 9/11 victims. >> right. to my mind there is nit picking there. they chose to weigh in on this
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issue and they weighed in on the side of telling people the mosque was a bad idea they chose to get involved on the wrong side. they do very good work and what i'm hoping that by returning the award and the money that came with it, i send them a signal and make them think about what they are doing. >> on buses in new york, there will be an ad that i think was originated by a right wing blogger. should these ads be on buses saying why there? they will show a picture of one of the towers with a plane going towards it and on the other side with a building with an islamic symbol on it. >> sure it should run. i don't know what the mt a's rule is, but freedom of expression is freedom of expression. that's fine. most people are opposed to this. i understood this when i took the stand.
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american democracy, the glory of american democracy is it's not just about what the majority thinks is right. it's an anti-democratic document. the bill of rights said no matter what the majority thinks, the first of those rights, the first amendment is about freedom of religion. >> appreciate it. thanks. coming up next, tracking a serial killer. he slashes the victims to death and lures them with a plea for help and may be motivated by skin color. the latest to find him. what's on the minds of independent investors?
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>> are new developments on the hunt for the escaped killer, the who happens to be as cousin. they may have robbed a store today in arkansas. officials are not ruling out the possibility, but said it's unlikely that they were involved. at the same time marshalls said they changed their appearance. he died his hair black and has a dark beard. she has blond hair and may have lost weight. the other two have been caught. he may be linked to a double murder in new mexico. there is a hunt for another murder. a serial killer whose allegedly
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stabbed his victims to death and may be behind a tax in three states. he appears to be choosing targets by skin color. it began in flint, michigan and he pre10s to need help before trick striking without warning. >> take a look at this car. a green trailblazer with light trim and dents in the hood. license plate unknown. the guy behind the wheel is say suspected serial killer. this was recorded august sixth inialliesburg, virginia moments before one of the attacks. police have surveillance video, but won't release it for now. the police chief described the chain of event when is the driver approached a 19-year-old man on the parking lot. >> for looks like he is stalking our victim. he quickly approaches him and the suspect gets out and asked
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the victim for help for a mechanical problem. as the victim opens the hood, the suspect swing what is looks to be a hammer-type instrument. the victim is able to detect that in his vision and ducks and gets a glancing blow. >> police believe since late may, the same attacker left a trail of carnage and violence on the great lakes region where there were 17 attacks down to the suburbs of washington where three more occurred last week. police say the first case in virginia happened near this intersection in leaseburg. a teenager out for an evening jog never even saw it coming. he felt a wane in his back and felt the blood and saw the guy jump into the car and drive away. the teen came to this gas station for help. he survived the attack, but his small size led authorities to think they are dealing with a
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serial killer. the suspect apparently chooses targets based on how small or weak they seymore how kind-hearted. some told police a guy stopped them and asked them for help with car problems or directions before attacks them. >> wanted to help him and he started stabbing me. >> that's another link. the ax tacker's weapon of choice is say hammer or a knife. this man who asked not to be identify side one of only two of the alleged killers known target who is white. 17 others are black. police describe another man as a dark-skinned hispanic. the killer is believed to be white which presents a loaded question. are they motivated by racial hatred? for the police chief the answer is yes. >> we classified this as a hate crime. >> authorities where the bulk of the attacks occurred are not sure. >> we don't know what's in his
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mind and have no idea why he is doing what he is doing. obviously there is something wrong with the individual. >> you don't have to tell that to the 20 known victims. >> obviously something wrong with the guy. i know you talked to criminal profilers. what did they say? >> the big question is is it racially motivated. it's a mixed opinion. a lot of people with different opinions. one of the people i talked to said these guys do not profile as to race. they call it a crime of opportunity. the person is there in this particular place and the victim that this guy can stab and get away with and that's the bottom line. they start doing it. they like it and it becomes a drug and they can't stop until they are caught. >> creepy. hope the guy is caught soon. the follow-up on kids and race. we will catch up with brile and her answers on test with a skin color that led her
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paraphernalias to make changes in how they talk about race. you will be surprised by the results of the pilot study. yes! ♪ look, they fit! oh my gosh, are those the jeans from last year? how'd you do it? simple stuff... eating right...whole grain. whole grain? [ female announcer ] people who eat more whole grain tend to have healthier body weights. multigrain cheerios has five whole grains and 110 lightly sweetened calories. more grains. less you! multigrain cheerios.
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more grains. less you! basic.? preferred. okay. at meineke i have options, and 50% off brake pads and shoes. my money. my choice. my meineke. tonight another follow-up with kids and race. we asked a team of researchers to conduct a pilot study and tested 130 kids in the north and south united states and found substantial amounts of white bias. associating positive qualities with light skin color and negative with dark skin. they found it in white children, but it was there in african-american kids as well. look at what 5-year-old brielle said when i asked her about the results to show me which skin color she would like to have. >> what are about you?
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why do you want that skin color? >> it looks lighter than this kind. this looks a lot like that one. i just don't like the way brown looks because it looks really nasty for some reason, but i don't know what reason. that's all. >> you think it looks nasty? >> nope, not really, but sometimes. >> sometimes. what color do adults not like? that's what you said. why do you think adults don't like it? >> dark. >> dark. you think adults don't like dark? >> maybe some adults do, but maybe some of them don't. >> what brielle said there and in the pilot study was a wake up call for her parents to change the way they talk about race at
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home. soledad o'brien caught up with her family recently. >> this is brielle today. her parents byron and leticia focused on changing her self perception. >> it made me feel like what are we doing wrong? we thought about some of the experiences she had where she has noticed her skin color at an early age and we thought that it was affecting her a certain way and didn't realize she realized it. >> her perception was that the golden hair or the lighter skinned kids got to be in line first for whatever or there was one incident in the way they cast even the christmas play. >> light skinned kids were the stars. >> right. but the part that she got was the that nobody would have possibly wanted. >> what did you play?
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>> a donkey. could have been a sheep, could have been any other barn animal. she ended up being the donkey. >> she knew as age 3 that was not the animal to be. >> sure. messages similar to those at 3 years old, those are things that you do remember in the subconscious. >> for brielle's parents, counteracting the messages for her and her sister brianna is now more than ever a priority. >> they are the most beautiful girls in the world as far as i'm concern and i need for them to know that. >> good job. >> i try to find ways to link that physical beauty, the skin tone and your pretty hair and pretty eyes and whatever it is to the beauty. i'm not speaking of beauty that is just because of what's inside. you are beautiful on the outside as well. >> brielle's answers got a
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strong reaction from family, friends and parishioners. >> did someone say what are you teaching this child? >> no. they were shocked, but it wasn't like a negative thing. a lot of people took up for her. they said what do you expect? look at society when you get married. you wear white when you get married. when the bad guy goes to rob, he puts on black. what are the messages? >> beyond looking at what their daughters see and hear from the world, byron and leticia are looking inward. >> what advice would you give parents who say i don't know what to say to my kid? >> honestly i would say the first level is within. it's hard to have a conversation about acceptance or even about having healthy pride in your own
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race when there very real predispositions within one's self. if i'm uncomfortable around white people, it will be hard for me to show my daughter to be comfortable. make sure that we are doing all we can to adjust our own mind set into one that really sees the equality of people. not just in speech. in reality. >> soledad o'brien, cnn, new york. >> the top of the hour, they claim women are traveling here to have babies and they can raise overseas as terrorists and send them back 20 years from now to attack us. we talked to the fbi about that thought. we'll be right back. hey, smart, we could stay here foence. i'm a member of this hotel's loyalty program. well, how far away is it? okay, we take a train 40 miles to a dude ranch where we pick up a couple of horses that we ride to a nearby river. then we canoe upstream to a helicopter
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